upper ball joint taper, first gen disk brake cars

[bluecab]

A while ago I bought a disk brake setup for my '66. The seller claimed that the parts were all from the same 1970 Toro. I had no reason to doubt him.
These parts sat for the last few years while I was busy and Finally I went to clean them up and paint them and I find that spindles/knuckles have two different ball joint tapers.

Do any of you know from experience which year has a large taper three bolt ball joint and which has a small taper three hole ball joint?

Do any of you know where I can find a match to either of the ones I have?

Lastly, is there a part number catalog or listing available?

[1970w34]

The correct 1967-70 Toronado ball-joint is a Moog K5205--it has a shorter fatter taper and is quite expensive.

The ball-joint for supposedly 1969-78 is Moog K5221 with a bit longer and narrower taper and much less expensive. It is often listed with advice that it be used only for knuckles with a certain forging number--which I cannot recall right now.

I've never seen a 1969 or 1970 with that knuckle number, but many from 1971 and up.

I hope that helps, there is a lot of misinformation and confusion regarding these.

I do have a set of the K5221 ball joints if you're interested. I also have a set of blasted 1970 knuckles with new bearings pressed in.

[69W34]

The change took place in 69 and ran into the 70 model year, and here's what the parts book calls out:

section 6,020 Knuckle
69-70 Toro disc brakes (*3 ) .......407144 RH
69-70 Toro disc brakes ...............407145 LH

*3 When replacing original knuckle 404367 by 407144 on 1969-1970 Toronados also order 1-231144 Lower Ball Joint, 1-231244 Upper Ball Joint and 1-7810467 Tie Rod End.

these numbers continued into 71 and up ...well some what.

Now as it was ... the 71 -75 used 407144 /45 L/R knuckles

Sec. 6.164 upper ball joint
71-72 Toro......... 231244

Sec.6.174 Lower ball joint
71-75 ............... 231144

There must have been something that got caught and corrected mid/late production though the left hand does not show the notation it is a later book effective April of 81. Hence the notation may have been dropped.

However it is not worthy that this book shows the upper ball joints 66-70 as 393367 and the lower 66-70 as 393371
Hope this helps ....

[bluecab]

Hey Bill,
Where do you get the part number listings from?

I have an assembly manual and a Fischer body book, but have not seen a parts book.

I'll check the casting numbers on the knuckles later and post them.

Thanks,

David

[bluecab]

Hi,
Here's what I've got:
Right spindle, casting #407144 (R3), has a 1/2" ball joint thread, 3 Mounting holes for bearing cup are thru drilled

Left spindle, casting #377012, has a 9/16 ball joint thread, 3 mounting holes are blind drilled.

Could the left be from an even later Toro or an Eldo? I have no way to look up part #s

Thanks!

David

[69W34]

These came directly from a Old GM parts book as stated effective April 1975.

I don't know what you’re working on however casting number #377012 may or not equate to a part number, that said based on what you have written about the right side, I would be inclined to say that yes … #377012 would be an early disc spindle that was superseded to the 407145 L/S. Whatever was going on it lead to requiring a redesign

When unanticipated manufacturing problems rear there ugly heads it is never pretty. And before any of the following can take place the root problem would need to be identified.

All of which can take 3-6 months to get the part into the pipeline depending on what it is. In this case the knuckle would appear to have required a redesign, followed by building the patterns for the molds, getting them cast then allowing them to cool and season for period of time before machining can begin. Then tested for fit with accompanying parts, as in (U/L ball joints and tie rod end) as they were also changed, then it’s on the vehicle test bed. Once testing is signed off it can go to full production, with manufacturing being the first to employ the new part then as inventory grows it on to the parts bins for field repairs as needed.

Sorry got a little long in the tooth here ….. these things just don’t happen overnight, hence what / whenever happen it cared over into the 70 model year before 407144/45 knuckles were fully employed in production.

[1970w34]

Thanks Bill, those were the numbers that were escaping my memory--those knuckles marked 407144/5 get the Moog ball-joint K5221 and the other gets the more expensive K5205.

The kick in the nuts is that I've never seen the 407144/5 on any 69 or 70 I've worked on or disassembled--and it has certainly been a few!

[69W34]

Hmmm interesting! Given that it carried over into the 70 model year it had to be late even very late, and something you may not though about when doing repairs is logging/noting the VIN's. Which would be the only way to knowing when the window opened. Where is the casting number located on the knuckle then of course is it buried or visible. With a little research we can determine when the change started to take place.

[1970w34]

Hmmm interesting! Given that it carried over into the 70 model year it had to be late even very late, and something you may not though about when doing repairs is logging/noting the VIN's. Which would be the only way to knowing when the window opened. Where is the casting number located on the knuckle then of course is it buried or visible. With a little research we can determine when the change started to take place.

Hey Bill, the casting number is on the inside toward the bottom--pretty large (1/2 inch) numbers but very difficult to see unless you have everything taken off and cleaned.

Carmen

[bluecab]

Carmen,
Are you saying that neither of the sets you had done had numbers on them?
The only way I can think that this would happen is that GM / Olds had more than one vendor for the knuckles.

David