posi-traction

[1970w34]

Any thoughts on the Applied GMC posi units? Do they adversely affect driveability in any significant manner?

They have other gear ratio's too. Just wondering if anyone here has tried them out. The 3.55 set sounds interesting.

[Eightballz]

i'm totally interested too. i talked to a guy who also builds LSD's for TH425 (for a lot less $$ than applied-GMC) and he's not concerned about torque steer etc.

not sure about the gear ratios though...may break the tires loose easier if you can't install a wider set of front tires. i plan to get a spare set of wheels and let a shop weld in some material to increase the overall rim width, so i can mount bigger tires.

[xgecko]

Limited Slip in an FWD car may not be a good idea. I have a GMC 3500 truck with an LSD and I can really feel how it scrubs around corners. The intent of an LSD is to provide traction in cases where one wheel might slip, but it also resists the differential action in normal use, and FWD cars really experience a significant differential action when cornering. This means you may have issues when cornering, and it almost certainly will reduce the maximum cornering limit by causing unintended slip on one of the wheels.

This is all from theory. If someone has actually driven a Toronado with an LSD and tested cornering performance with good results then I guess that is what counts. I personally would not do this as I am a handling nut and any chance that I would reduce cornering performance is not worth the off the line gain. I would use an RWD car for that... which is my next project, a 67 or 69 Riviera with a modern LT1 engine and a 6 speed auto...

[Eightballz]

i dont think its that bad...there are a lot of performance FWD cars that came with LSD from factory. i never heard these cars having a bad time driving corners fast...though a toronado ain't a performance car like that.

had a 2016 VW GTI with optional LSD and cornering was like driving on railroad tracks...maybe because its a modern LSD type but it was a mechanical type LSD for sure.

i guess we'll never find out till someone bites the bullet and installs a LSD in a toro...

[xgecko]

I do not understand:

...though a toronado ain't a performance car like that.

I beg to differ, this is one of the major reasons I love our cars so much. Compared to any other car of the era ours handles incredibly well when set up properly, and if I trusted the rear suspension I can get some serious handling performance if I drive it properly.

These cars handle much more like a modern car than most people realize. If you do the reading on the Engineering Notes that are floating around on the InnerTubes then you quickly realize how surprised they were to find how stiff the suspension geometry seems while still providing an amazing amount of compliance. It turns out that the design of the front suspension gave it some real benefits in handling especially over rough surfaces.

So in my case my Toro is set up as a canyon carver and I drive it like that whenever I get a chance. It is not a short course rally car I admit, but almost any form of street style course or track will be short work for my car.

As for the LSD bit, I think you hit the nail on the head. Someone has to be brave enough to do the work to see what happens. Who knows, as my fortunes rise and I have more disposable income perhaps I will try it myself and let you know what happens. Worst case I just put back the old dif...

[Otto Skorzeny]

Personally I think my first gen Toro ('66) handles extremely well. Unlike most people - and probably most of you - I only drive old cars. I don't even own a modern vehicle.

I say this because most people, even those who collect and drive old cars, drive modern vehicles as their default vehicle. Whether they think they do not, they will judge the handling and performance of an old car based on their experiences with a modern car.

Since all I've ever owned are cars built prior to 1972, I have no bias toward their handling characteristics. (Driving my brother's Buick Lucerne un-nerve's me a little bit.)

Anyway, I roll my eyes when people talk about large, luxury cars from the 50s and 60s "handling like boats" or "wallowing". When steering and suspension parts are all within factory specs, these cars handle like dreams. My '56 Cadillac takes corners and cloverleaf interchanges like it's driving on rails. No leaning, rolling or wallowing.

It's funny to think that original owners of the '66 Toro complained that the suspension was too harsh and too stiff. GM softened it up on subsequent models. (probably why Gecko et al are working to tighten it up). To me, the suspension seems perfectly adequate for the car and the type of driving it was meant for - highway cruising, long trips, even zipping around town. It'll take sharp curves at speed without trouble but one must know its limitations. I've never felt that the rear end was going to break loose or anything.

People often think that the Toros are front heavy but I've never experienced that feeling. Actually I can't really tell a difference in its handling characteristics from the '72 Monte Carlo I sold to buy the Cadillac.

I recently installed all new shocks and steering damper on the car - KYB on the front and Gabriels everywhere else. What a difference it made from the way it was when I bought it.

[xgecko]

OK, now that you mention it, I guess I should consider that I have some experience with cars from the 60s and 70s through the 80s and most of the larger ones I drove were fairly boaty by my book compared to my Toro. However, it is worth considering that all the Toros I have ever owned - those rattletraps I drove in Mass. back in the 80's as well as my current hot rod were modified to some degree including new shocks. And truth be told I drove one of my old rotten cars around a cloverleaf where I entered it at 35 MPH and exited onto 495 at 95 MPH after planting my foot and rotating the wheel from 1:00 to around 5:30 or so. The BF Goodrich Radial TAs dug in and hauled ass around that full cloverleaf and just blew my mind. Granted, they were 60 series and I did not adjust the speedo so I was probably only doing around 80 when I entered the highway even though the speedo read 95, but the point is that I stressed the heck out of the suspension of a car in far worse condition than mine aside from pure age and it held up.

It is that last bit that scares me about my car and keeps me sane and safe. This might be a good thing, although I truly do know my limits as well as public safety limits and do respect them... most of the time. Really. I do mean it after having nearly killed myself. I just cannot claim to be perfect.

So you are quite right about the Toro in my experience, and I do want to have a pristine 66 some time in the future to keep totally stock. That will give me a sense of the difference, but I do have to say that my car does have a nice balance of ride and handling. Not sure it really needs to be any stiffer, but it would be nice to see what it is like.

I do know that the old Lincolns I have been in felt like they had slinkies for springs because the body seemed to slide horizontally from side to side as you cornered. It was not a pleasant sensation, and it left me with a strong distaste for the Marque... but I never had that in a Cadillac. I bought a 76 Eldo a few years back for the rear discs and tried to hit bumps with it on the way back but even though I swear I nailed several straight on I never felt a thing... that car was the epitome of a boat if ever there was one!

I bet your Caddy rides real nice and handles reasonably enough. After all, that kind of car is really not about handling, is it? One always has to appreciate the intent of the car, and the Caddy would be a fine ride indeed I do not doubt.

[Otto Skorzeny]

In case you're wondering, none of my old cars were ever "new" when I bought them. I've just never been attracted to modern vehicles. Even those that were new when I was a kid bored me to tears.

I wanted to buy a '36 Ford in high school but my dad said no way - skinny tires, mechanical brakes, etc. etc. He said I needed something newer. So I found a 1942 Packard Clipper in the paper for $1200. He then said, by newer I mean something like a '65 Mustang or something.

As luck would have it, I met a girl on the school bus a couple weeks later who was selling a '66 Mustang. This was in the 80s.

After that I bought a '68 Camaro in college, traded that for a '72 Monte Carlo, and then sold the Monte in order to buy the Cadillac. I also had a '56 F-100 at the same time as the other cars. I sold it and put the money toward the Cadillac as well.

My current work truck is a '79 F100. Believe it or not, the '56 Cadillac is more "modern" than the '79 Ford truck, though. It has power everything, twice the horsepower, 10 times the comfort, excellent brakes, etc.

Oh ya, I forgot to mention my first car - a 1946 Cadillac. I bought it when I was 10 and sold it when I was 15 when we moved to Georgia. I never got to drive it.

[Otto Skorzeny]

Here's another pic of my first car and my two current cars. Don't know why they posted in the reverse order that I added them. I can't find any of my '66 Mustang or the '56 F100.

[xgecko]

I know you will likely not believe me, but as great as the classics are, the modern cars are just amazing. The latest Camaro, for example, built on the Cadillac Alpha platform found under the CTS and ATS cars. I have driven an ATS-V with the six-speed manual and it was an amazing experience. I love my Toronado and I love how it drives and I love driving it, but nothing built back then can compare to what you can buy today in terms of performance, quality, maintenance, and overall experience. It is very different, and I appreciate classic cars for very different reasons than I appreciate modern high performance cars.

I am not trying to put down the classics by any means, I am just pointing out that as fun and wonderful as they are, the driving experience of a modern high performance car is in an entirely different league. I would never give up my modern trucks and cars for daily drivers except in the summer when I do tend to take the Toro whenever I can.

Of course if performance driving does not appeal to you in the first place then neither will this comment, and I get that. One of the things I love so much about this hobby is that I can look at something I personally dislike such as a Rat Rod and still appreciate that the owner does not care in the slightest what I think and is enjoying their ride as much as I enjoy mine! It really helps us gain perspective on the idea that different opinions and tastes are a good thing - and sometimes lead us to new experiences if we are open enough to give them a try at least once.

You have some fine cars there indeed. I really like the Continental Kit on that Cadillac!