Just how bad are factory Drum brakes on '66?

[Twilight Fenrir]

Well, I knew what I was getting into with my Toronado when I bought it. And knew the 4 drum brakes would need to be upgraded to disc in the front. I've read horror stories about them, and it's definitely high on my list of things to do. But, should it be the top thing on my list?

I know I can get a complete kit from Kanter for $1K, which will allow me to use my factory wheels without having to go to those much uglier (imo) 7-hole disc wheels. But, it's something I'd like to get to a bit later... ideally after rebuilding the engine.

I drive an '86 Pontiac Fiero at the moment, another car with notoriously bad brakes. And I don't really have too much of a problem with them... Once in awhile, it gets a bit scary for a few seconds, but I usually only overshoot by a couple feet when I realize I'm not slowing enough.

I'm planning on using my '66 as a daily driver over the summer, once I get it on the road. Don't really have much call for emergency stops on my normal driving. And speeds never really get above 70mph... I guess, what it boils down to is, are they safe under normal operating conditions?

Thanks.

[roland]

Can you tell some more about that KANTER brake conversion kit, please ?
Any link ???

[xgecko]

Well, the best I can say is to relate my experience with my 67 Delta 88 back in the day... that being mid-80s.

Guy in an Audo 4000e pulls out in front of me while I am on the way to work. I am doing about 35 mph. He stops directly in front of me - I guess seeing a lime green monster like that just scared the pants off of him. I slam on the brakes... they decide to make something of an effort to try to stop the 2+ tons of steel that is hurtling towards the hapless sod in the Audi.

After shedding perhaps 20 mph in a hundred or so feet I slammed into him broadside. It was like hitting a pillow at 15 MPH. It took another 20 or so feet to come to a complete stop with my nose embedded in his Audi.

So do drum brakes work? Sure, they will stop the car. Eventually. If that is OK with you then by all means keep using those drums up front. Me? I'll never drive another car with drum brakes more than the distance it takes to get it from where it has been to my garage. When I get my 66 I hope to have obtained all the parts needed to convert it. And I am actively looking for a 76-78 Eldorado so I can scavenge the rear disks from it to put on my 69. 4 wheel disks will rock for sure!

I would either scour boneyards, look for a suitable donor car to buy for parts, or buy the Kanter kit. Drum brakes may work under normal duty where you can compensate for their poor performance, but in my book I want to stop when I need to stop, not shortly thereafter...

And when you do go for the upgrade, be sure to check back and see how my experience with the Wilwood Aluminum 2-Piston calipers turns out. Lower unsprung weight and better performance should result in a very good review.

[Twilight Fenrir]

Can you tell some more about that KANTER brake conversion kit, please ?
Any link ???

Sorry, I don't have a link about it, it's not listed on their website... but, it is in their physical catalogue, here's a scan for you. It lists the price as $1099, but on the front of the catalogue there's a coupon if you spend more than $1000, you get $100 off. The code is CK11100. Also, they have a lifetime warranty on everything they sell.

Well, the best I can say is to relate my experience with my 67 Delta 88 back in the day... that being mid-80s.

Guy in an Audo 4000e pulls out in front of me while I am on the way to work. I am doing about 35 mph. He stops directly in front of me - I guess seeing a lime green monster like that just scared the pants off of him. I slam on the brakes... they decide to make something of an effort to try to stop the 2+ tons of steel that is hurtling towards the hapless sod in the Audi.

After shedding perhaps 20 mph in a hundred or so feet I slammed into him broadside. It was like hitting a pillow at 15 MPH. It took another 20 or so feet to come to a complete stop with my nose embedded in his Audi.

So do drum brakes work? Sure, they will stop the car. Eventually. If that is OK with you then by all means keep using those drums up front. Me? I'll never drive another car with drum brakes more than the distance it takes to get it from where it has been to my garage. When I get my 66 I hope to have obtained all the parts needed to convert it. And I am actively looking for a 76-78 Eldorado so I can scavenge the rear disks from it to put on my 69. 4 wheel disks will rock for sure!

I would either scour boneyards, look for a suitable donor car to buy for parts, or buy the Kanter kit. Drum brakes may work under normal duty where you can compensate for their poor performance, but in my book I want to stop when I need to stop, not shortly thereafter...

And when you do go for the upgrade, be sure to check back and see how my experience with the Wilwood Aluminum 2-Piston calipers turns out. Lower unsprung weight and better performance should result in a very good review.

Hmmm.... maybe I need to go the Bond route and hook up a grapling cable to the back At the very least, it will be going to the car show as-is. I'm going to be taking appart the drums and changing shoes, and having the drums turned, either today or tomorrow. So at least they will be as good as they can be for that.

I'll probably get the Kanter kit as soon as I get the money from selling a house. The Drum Lessons article ( http://www.breznick.com/toronado/brakes/index.htm ) Adds up to over the cost of the Kanter kit anyway, plus then I won't have to try and scour salvage yards. There aren't many around here with cars that old. And, I'll be able to still use my pretty 10-hole drum wheels, instead of those ugly 7 disc.

[Sparky]

Although doing a disk brake conversion on your '66 would be the bees knees, if drum brakes are done correctly, they aren't really as bad as the urban legend would make you think. I do, however, suggest a dual master cylinder/booster conversion regardless.

The trick to doing a really good drum brake job is to start with good drums, use only rivited asbestos/or mild metallic linings. Never use BONDED linings! Asbestos linings can still be had, but hard to find, usually on OEM shoes or by a industrial brake place, they are STILL used contrary to what you have been told.

The MOST important thing is to have the brakes shoes/linings arced for 100% contact patch interface. You need to find a brake guy that has an old arcing machine. See: http://www.toronado.org/mityarc.htm I wrote this article several years ago...

Sparky

[69W34]

That the way I see it to with arching the shoes being the key point at least for me, converting to the 69 and up disc system in of itself is very inexpensive. Then if you need additional parts some what easy to pick up if something should go south with the conversion its not exactly off the shelf. as complete as these up grades are supposed to be there, more often that not something else is or will be required ... And ... the 66-7 drum wheel in of its self a very unusual reverse design that essentially wraps the drum. At this late date one would have have to asked did Kanter vet the system with a reverse wheel? 12 inch rotor or not, out of all of the other kit applications only the toro uses a reverse wheel. Which by the internally is 12 and 3/4

then One may still them selves needing a set of 67-70 disc wheels which are are 10 hole, those 'ugly' 7 hole were used on 71 up and are not stamped to receive or hold a center cap.

[Twilight Fenrir]

That the way I see it to with arching the shoes being the key point at least for me, converting to the 69 and up disc system in of itself is very inexpensive. Then if you need additional parts some what easy to pick up if something should go south with the conversion its not exactly off the shelf. as complete as these up grades are supposed to be there, more often that not something else is or will be required ... And ... the 66-7 drum wheel in of its self a very unusual reverse design that essentially wraps the drum. At this late date one would have have to asked did Kanter vet the system with a reverse wheel? 12 inch rotor or not, out of all of the other kit applications only the toro uses a reverse wheel. Which by the internally is 12 and 3/4

then One may still them selves needing a set of 67-70 disc wheels which are are 10 hole, those 'ugly' 7 hole were used on 71 up and are not stamped to receive or hold a center cap.

Oohhh, I thought the 7-hole were used on all disc, good to know.

I sent Kanter an e-mail about how to order the disc kit... And they no longer make them... So, i'm going to be stuck with the drums untill I can wrangle up a scrap car to steal the parts from... What a major pain... If only i'd had the money a couple months ago...

I've got no idea if anywhere around here has an arcing.machine... I'll start calling up the older shops in town. Someone mist do them, there are alot of collectors arround here.

[Twilight Fenrir]

Okay, I'm back on the hunt for disc brakes... I found a set of '69 knuckles, and upper control arms... Everything else I can buy new.

Got one question though, according to the "Drum Lessons" http://www.breznick.com/toronado/brakes/index.htm , which is very nice and in-deapth. It says I need the upper control arms. But, the part compatibility of the upper control arms for '69 includes the '66 Toro... So I can keep my original upper, and just buy the knuckles?

[69W34]

I have not read 'Drum lessons' consequently don't know what Dave was up against that would require later A arms. The GM parts book I have shows the same part number for 66-70 upper control arm. There is a requirement for use of 69 and early 70 disc knuckles, it has to do with the pitch of the outer tie rod stud where it joins the knuckle it must be compatible with the knuckle. Its not serious problem just something to be aware of.

Presumably you will get the caliber bracket and calipers with the knuckles, You then can get loaded caliper from NAPA at a very reasonable price ( if memory serves ) $50 exchanged each.
Then the obvious dual master cylinder metering valve proper hoses, new bearing are of no issue just need a press, its not hard just follow a 69-70 service manual and remember there are NO dumb questions.

[Twilight Fenrir]

I have not read 'Drum lessons' consequently don't know what Dave was up against that would require later A arms. The GM parts book I have shows the same part number for 66-70 upper control arm. There is a requirement for use of 69 and early 70 disc knuckles, it has to do with the pitch of the outer tie rod stud where it joins the knuckle it must be compatible with the knuckle. Its not serious problem just something to be aware of.

Presumably you will get the caliber bracket and calipers with the knuckles, You then can get loaded caliper from NAPA at a very reasonable price ( if memory serves ) $50 exchanged each.
Then the obvious dual master cylinder metering valve proper hoses, new bearing are of no issue just need a press, its not hard just follow a 69-70 service manual and remember there are NO dumb questions.

Awesome, thanks

Yeah, I figured out the pricing on everything I need. I can get better parts, at better prices from RockAuto though. All in all, it looks like it will only cost me about $600 Well... in addition tot he $300 I was going to spend on my suspension rebuild anyway. Plus I figure I'll replace every line on the car, and throw some DOT5 fluid in it just for good measure.

The only thing I'm not 100% sure about, is finding some '67 Disc brake wheels... preferably chrome. That's just going to take some patience.